Comment by jon link on December 16, 2002 2:29 pm

wow- mark, that’s not a biased at all…. no, no, no…. tell ya what: that kind of closed mindedness is what is wrong with the far right. reason is a joke. criticizing moore for citing the issues without answering them- as if there is a simple answe- is far too easy. perhaps the right has an answer for solving gun-related crimes? or is that not a problem? i will never understand how conservatives got this idea across that they know how to manage things and deal with issues… conservatives are classically the predecessor to an increased national debt (and all the things that come with it.. poverty, crime rate boost, etc).

in other words put in or get out.

Comment by Mark on December 16, 2002 8:18 pm

Just trying to show that there are other opinions on Moore’s work. Is it closed-minded to have a different opinion?
I think the point of Reason’s article is that what Moore portrays is a caricature of America – accurate in some ways but distorted in others. Of course, this helps drive home his point, but the distortions are based on his world-view. Should we all accept his views without question?

Comment by Casey on December 28, 2002 7:58 pm

The conversation on this topic forced me to post a new story about gun control.

Comment by jon on January 13, 2003 10:38 am

mark- happy holidays to you too.

i never intended to say that reason couldn’t offer a world view (in fact i dont believe ever said that). let me put it this way, for a magazine called reason they seem insanely bent on not listening to anyone but themselves. they complete brush off moore and that’s just wrong. (this is not to mention the fact that the article becomes a personal attack. there is an old saying- seperate the art from the artist)

also, i want to add that this review talks about homicide rates falling– it has been long acknowledged that this is in part due to medical science improving. in other words people are still getting shot, but now they live through it.

i just cant believe anyone who says gun violence is not a problem.

i think that perhaps moores goal was not so much to propose a solution but rather to bring the issue to the front and have people realize it is an issue– the author of the reason article seems to think this may not be the case.

in closing here are two darling quotes from reason (i like the part where they make fun of his weight…)

“The documentary is, on its surface, a meditation on American gun violence. But it functions in effect as a general summation of lefty complaints about America. In its feckless collection of sad plaints with only the barest glimmer of a hope of solution, it is also a good summation of the progressive left’s intellectual impotence.”

“With his relentless self-promotion, phony common-man image, and tendency to get facts wrong in pursuit of his agenda, Moore makes a big and tempting target. (Yes, his size is often picked on by his foes as well.) With the exception of the factual errors, most of what Moore is regularly pilloried for is irrelevant for anything other than playing a game of spot-the-hypocrite?not necessarily the most productive intellectual sport.”

Comment by Mark on January 13, 2003 9:48 pm

Jon:
Again, I disagree with your assessment. The Reason article says, “Moore, allegedly a very funny guy, hits the usual targets, some of them worthwhile.” Does this constitute a “complete brush off?”

You mention that the falling homicide rate is in “part due to medical science improving.” How much is due to improvements in medical science, and how much is due to other causes? What were the other causes?

I don’t think anyone is saying that gun violence is not a problem. It’s the solutions that we disagree on. Moore’s proposal is to ban ammunition sales, a position not far from banning guns. If you will indulge me, I will quote Criminologist Gary Kleck. First, you should know who he is:

“The author is a member of the American Civil Liberties Union, Amnesty International USA, Independent Action, Democrats 2000, and Common Cause, among other politically liberal organizations. He is a lifelong registered Democrat, as well as a contributor to liberal Democratic candidates. He is not now, nor has he ever been, a member of, or contributor to, the National Rifle Association, Handgun Control, Inc. nor any other advocacy organization, nor has he received funding for research from any such organization.”

Now, here is what he says on guns and violence:

“When I began my research on guns in 1976, like most academics, I was a believer in the “anti-gun” thesis, i.e. the idea that gun availability has a net positive effect on the frequency and/or seriousness of violent acts. It seemed then like self-evident common sense which hardly needed to be empirically tested. However, as a modest body of reliable evidence (and an enormous body of not-so-reliable evidence) accumulated, many of the most able specialists in this area shifted from the “anti-gun” position to a more skeptical stance, in which it was negatively argued that the best available evidence does not convincingly or consistently support the anti-gun position.
[Subsequent research] has caused me to move beyond even the skeptic position. I now believe that the best currently available evidence, imperfect though it is (and must always be), indicates that general gun availability has no measurable net positive effect on rates of homicide, suicide, robbery, assault, rape, or burglary in the U[nited] S[tates].”

See the whole article at: http://www.guncite.com/gcwhoGK.html

Comment by Scott on February 20, 2007 10:12 pm

Recently I reviewed the Michael moore film, Bowling For Columbine, and I this time, something caught my attention and its hold would not lessen. I am trying to gather information regarding the short clips Michael plays in the film. Specifically the clip where some man in a suit takes a gun out of a manilla envelope and puts the gun in his mouth and pulls the trigger. I wish to know more about this disturbing scene, (like Who is this man and why is he doing this to himself in front of all those people?) Anyway, any information is glady appreciated. Thanks.
-Scott